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What do you mean by "Intermediate"...? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| JS-1 Diglot Senior Member Ireland Joined 5777 days ago 144 posts - 166 votes  Speaks: English*, French Studies: Arabic (Egyptian), German, Japanese, Ancient Egyptian, Arabic (Written) | Message 1 of 18 20 June 2009 at 2:11am | IP Logged | ||
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Further to the rather heated discussion elsewhere about hyper-polyglots and their level
of achievement, I am curious to know what people here mean by 'intermediate'. For some people the term is almost an insult, as it seems to describe a rather low level in a language, but I always took the term to mean that you can actually speak quite well and you are comfortable with the grammar, although you might not have the vocabulary or eloquence to engage in 'advanced' discussions. It seems some people use the term for basic grammar and underdeveloped conversational skills, but surely this would be basic and not intermediate? Edited by JS-1 on 20 June 2009 at 2:13am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| snovymgodom Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5519 days ago 136 posts - 149 votes Speaks: English*, Russian | Message 2 of 18 20 June 2009 at 2:26am | IP Logged | ||
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I'd say that your definition is pretty accurate. As an intermediate learner, you can do much more than, say, talk about your family or your hobbies, which is beginners' territory. Intermediate learners can have longer conversations about a variety of topics but may lack the vocabulary or expressions to talk extensively about things like specific political topics, economic problems, technical stuff, etc. The transition from intermediate to advanced requires fine-tuning one's speech and lessening the influence of one's native language and being conscious of nuances. While intermediate learners still have a long way to go, I would say that it still is a respectable stage and should not be taken as an insult.
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| cordelia0507 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5632 days ago 1473 posts - 2176 votes Speaks: Swedish* Studies: German, Russian | Message 3 of 18 20 June 2009 at 2:55am | IP Logged | ||
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I think I agree with Snowymgodom. I also think that intermediate is where many people start losing the drive and focus. Getting to intermediate can almost be fun and is quite easy. It can be rather painless.
But getting from intermediate to advanced or fluent is where the hard and boring work take place (i.e. grammar drills and cramming vocabulary.) At the intermediate level you can communicate, but you are making quite a lot of mistakes. At the next level up your speech should be relatively free of mistakes, you should be familar with speech patterns of native speakers and be able to express yourself without hesitation. All the fuss in the other thread is about what people think is needed to get to that level. Myself and others who have been through this process say that it's hard work and no two ways about it, while others believe that you can sit back and immerse yourself while it somehow happens naturally. That sure hasn't been my experience. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| snovymgodom Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5519 days ago 136 posts - 149 votes Speaks: English*, Russian | Message 4 of 18 20 June 2009 at 3:12am | IP Logged | ||
I think that the types of mistakes one makes is also a relevant topic. The mistakes should be relatively minor and not hinder understanding of the main idea. If the thought is not understood, the intermediate learner should be able to paraphrase and figure out a way to say the idea using different words. There shouldn't be a need to pause one's speech and "search" for the right word too much, the speech should have an uninterrupted flow to it. There are also common phrases and grammatical points that should be mastered at this point. An example is the phrase "мне нравится", used in Russian when you want to say you like something. A true beginner might consciously say "я нравится" or something like that. An intermediate learner would only make that mistake if he is tired and is speaking without thinking (which is a normal phenomenon). Using Russian again, another example is the issue of verbs related to studying, "учить, учиться, изучать, научить, выучить", etc. These should be mastered at the intermediate level, because as an intermediate learner you will probably already have been asked questions using these words many times, such as "Почему вы изучаете русский?", "Где вы учитесь?", and so on. Some complex topics, such as Russian verbs of motion, though, might not be mastered until well into the advanced stage. Last year I was in an advanced Russian class, but in reality the level of learning is more like high intermediate, and in speech we still from time to time made mistakes with prefixed verbs of motion when combined with aspect, direction, etc. I still find it one of the trickiest things in Russian grammar. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| dmg Diglot Senior Member Canada dgryski.blogspot.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6805 days ago 555 posts - 605 votes 1 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Dutch, Esperanto | Message 5 of 18 20 June 2009 at 3:45am | IP Logged | ||
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So, since we agree the terms are vague, why do people insist on using them? I prefer the CEFRL levels, but the IRL scale is useful too.
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| snovymgodom Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5519 days ago 136 posts - 149 votes Speaks: English*, Russian | Message 6 of 18 20 June 2009 at 3:57am | IP Logged | ||
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Yes, overall scales give more details than the vague terms of "beginner", "intermediate", etc. Because I'm in the United States, my university has always used the ACTFL scales, which I think are pretty decent.
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| JS-1 Diglot Senior Member Ireland Joined 5777 days ago 144 posts - 166 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: Arabic (Egyptian), German, Japanese, Ancient Egyptian, Arabic (Written) | Message 7 of 18 20 June 2009 at 4:47am | IP Logged | ||
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I think it can be difficult for people to assess their level using these scales without
taking exams. Besides, I think the criteria are open to interpretation -except perhaps for ILR5 where you either speak as well as an educated native or you don't. I would find it very difficult to judge my level of German without professional advice as I don't really know how I would cope in a work environment, but I would have no difficulty judging my French level. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| andee Tetraglot Senior Member Japan Joined 6871 days ago 681 posts - 724 votes 3 sounds Speaks: English*, German, Korean, French | Message 8 of 18 20 June 2009 at 5:13am | IP Logged | ||
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My idea of intermediate is inline with most of yours.
That is, being able to live in that language. By that I mean, you can conduct everything you need in that language; obviously shopping and other issues of life such as transport, directions, etc. But also social relationships, albeit limited by vocabulary or fluency, and a spattering of errors or describing things in long-winded ways. As a scale, I'm happy with many of the 6-tiered systems out there such as the CEFRL. They are still somewhat vague and subjective (when self-assessing), but not as subjective as using your own scale. Has as been mentioned previously, many people rate themselves fluent where others may rate themselves as intermediate when at the same level. It's just like the old 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder' adage. Edited by andee on 20 June 2009 at 5:15am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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